Seems like the blogs are buzzing about hell again. I really like what Out of Ur is doing by highlighting teachings on hell from influential people.
Here are the last couple videos they've posted - the first from N.T Wright and the second from John Piper.
I have a lot of my own opinions about what these guys have to say, but I want to know what you think.
What are your thoughts?
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Def two great viewpoints to look at side by side. You and I have talked before about the concept of hell, what it is and whether or not it is indeed a final reality for those who neglect to give their lives to Christ in this lifetime or not, and I'm still not anywhere near a conclusion on this one.
ReplyDeleteOn one side, it's hard to put much weight on the literal idea of hell after death when the bible doesn't seem to make it much of a pressing issue. We don't see Christ scaring people into his arms and away from the fires that await. We have no record of him asking the masses, "If you died tonight, do you know where you would go???"
Taking this, coupled with the idea that Wright points out that the bible addresses death not being a time of leaving earth and going to heaven or hell, but a time when heaven will come down to earth, it's hard to argue for the existence and/or finality of such a place.
On the other hand, are we getting too involved in semantics while people are dying and entering eternity separated from God? I hate to think of this argument at all but is there anything to be said about playing the odds here, that if we simply err on the side of being too careful, more people will "get into" heaven, instead of erring on the side of hopefulness?
Like I said, I'm still undecided upon this one. Like Wright, I wish I could be more universalist on this issue, hoping for a way that all can come to be with God for eternity. I really do hope that the grace and love of Christ extends through eternity, even after death, offering his love, forgiveness and acceptance to those who died without giving their lives to him.
I struggle with this as well, and I think both Wright and Piper make good points. I'm going to go ahead and disagree with Marc though, in that I do think Scripture makes it a pressing issue. How many parables does Jesus tell that end with the unrighteous character(s) being cast into eternal punishment, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth? I don't know the exact number, but there are several.
ReplyDeleteI don't know the word usage breakdown of "hell," but i think it's safe to assume the metaphorical usage of "Gehenna," the burning trash heap just outside Jerusalem. But what of the other usage, "Hades," which in the Greeks' minds, was an actual place. In particular, i look at Luke 16, where Jesus tells the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. It says the rich man was in torment in Hades and he says, "I am in agony in this fire."
I tend to agree with N.T. Wright, especially when he reminds us of the future joining of the New Heaven and New Earth. But i don't think that necessarily eliminates the concept and/or place of Hell. So, I always end up in the same boat as Marc, in that I have no idea. I think it's significant though that both authors assert that the reality of our eternity needs to affect how we live now. Our lives should be lived both for our eternal salvation, and bringing the Kingdom here now through things like social justice. I do not see them at odds at all.
Marc -
ReplyDelete"On the other hand, are we getting too involved in semantics while people are dying and entering eternity separated from God?"
Good thought - but I also think about people living separated from God. Also, do you believe eternity begins when you die?
Ben -
ReplyDeleteI love your closing thoughts -
"I think it's significant though that both authors assert that the reality of our eternity needs to affect how we live now. Our lives should be lived both for our eternal salvation, and bringing the Kingdom here now through things like social justice. I do not see them at odds at all."
It seemed like Piper felt like they were at odds though. As if Kingdom theology in lieu of social justice somehow worked against salvation.
Did you get that too?
As far as the universalist comment that Wright makes towards the end of his video, do you agree with him that universalism dictates that what we do with our time on earth doesn't matter eternally?
ReplyDeleteA very interesting discussion. I like the focus of N.T. Wright more than I do John Piper's. Piper seems to be clinging to hell as if his faith would cease to exist without it. I don't know but it seems like seperation from God should be what strikes fear in us. A focus on escaping the flames of hell is more "me" focused and can lead us to purchasing fire insurance instead of seeking what we need most intimacy with God. This lack of intimacy with God has produced in my life a living hell at times.
ReplyDeleteHell is a place I think. But I am not sure it is specific. It may just be where God is not.
I like many points from both videos. I believe that hell is a real place, which is an extremely hard thing to accept since I so badly don't want it to be true. I have wept hard a couple times because of this reality.
ReplyDeleteSome people say that since life here on earth is temporary and only eternity matters that we shouldn't be so concerned with temporary social justice. I definitely would not go that far at all. Social justice is so wonderful because it gives a foretaste of the Kingdom of God. It gives substance to our teaching that Jesus saves.
I'm not going to comment specifically on the videos, but I think the most important thing is to look at what the Scriptures say. There's a ton, especially in the OT. It probably wouldn't be that helpful to write out a list, but just search for them in a concordance or google search or whatever.
God bless you guys in your studies!
John,
ReplyDeleteActually, there's no hell in the Hebrew Bible, only in the NT. I definitely agree with what you though on what you say about the social justice.
Thanks for the comments!
WIlliam,
ReplyDeleteI love what you've got to say. Good stuff.
William, I relate very strongly to what you say in your first paragraph. Good observations. In your comment about hell as "place," however, I remind you that according to Scripture (and also Orthodox Christian tradition, btw, which is my frame of reference), there is no place where God is not (Psalm 139:7-12). Isn't God, by Christian definition, omnipresent? That's the problem, from an Orthodox perspective, with life beyond the grave for the one who does not want or love God--the veil of unbelief hiding His Presence from view during this mortal life will be removed for good. For those who love sin and hate God--those who have the most vested interest in hiding from His Light, living with themselves and all they did and have become in their own hearts in the Light of His Presence (even though--paradoxically even precisely BECAUSE--God's Light and Presence is synonymous with His all-merciful, all-forgiving Love) will be torment.
ReplyDeleteKaren
Andy, the OT may not mention "Gehenna" (a NT metaphor for hell-fire) or "Hades" (the place of the dead) as does the NT, but it has plenty to say about God's wrath (often pictured as fire, as also is God's holy Presence), God's judgment of sin, and "Sheol" (the grave, which is roughly equivalent to the NT concept of "Hades," at least in the way that the authors of the NT Scriptures use it). ISTM, and likely you agree, these are accounts all Christians have to try to faithfully understand and come to terms with--always in the light of Christ and the fullness of God that He reveals in His own Person. The living reality of Christ in His Church is the interpretive grid, from an Orthodox perspective, that allows us to understand the true theological meaning, the spiritual import, of all the Scriptures OT and NT.
ReplyDeleteKaren
I think an unnuanced preaching of "hell," after the fashion of many admirers of Jonathan Edwards (though, there IS much to appreciate there), and perhaps more especially among those who, influenced by this kind of teaching, conclude that the most appropriate thing to do is aim bullhorns and "TURN or BURN!" signs indiscrimately into the masses preaching the threat of God’s judgment in hell (e.g., here: http://www.outofur.com/archives/2009/11/angry_preachers.html), rather than feeding faith in the gospel of Christ, has done a lot to foster modern forms of atheism born of a despair of the goodness of God or that a truly good God exists. This misconception of God and an improper emphasis on His anger against sinners, seems to me to be the result of a grossly compromised understanding of God's "justice” in the account given of the nature of the Atonement in the Reformation doctrine of Penal Substitution. From an Orthodox perspective, the Reformation doctrine of Penal Substitution is based on a false understanding of God's motivation in the Incarnation as one of needing to have a Perfect human *Victim to punish before He could forgive sin,* and of the nature of Christ's sacrificial work on the Cross as receiving *retributive* punishment in the sinner's stead, *from an angry, vengeful "Father-God"*). The phrases/words I have highlighted with asterisks constitute the difficulties in this doctrine for an Orthodox. After many years as an Evangelical of searching the Scriptures and my own sinful heart, I began to find aspects of this doctrine repugnant and even blasphemous, yet I knew Christ and the Scriptures are true. I was relieved to find out that the Eastern Orthodox (who have a continuous tradition of Scriptural interpretation that goes much deeper and broader into Christian doctrinal history than Jonathan Edwards, and which is supported by theological heavy weights such as Sts. Gregory the Theologian, Basil, Gregory of Nyssa, John Chrysostem, Athanasius, and many others!), do, too. As much as I respect John Piper and much that he preaches, as I see it he cannot escape reinforcing this distortion from Reformation thought, and so many aspects of his approach are going to be misguided and I think have the opposite effect to what he intends. NT Wright’s account in this video, and likely in his books, suggests he interprets Scripture and the Church Fathers in ways that tend to be much more akin to an Orthodox Christian understanding, and not so uncritically through a Reformation lens.
ReplyDeletePlease forgive the long-windedness! I didn’t mean to hijack your blog! I hope my comments are food for fruitful reflection.
Posting "anonymously" only as a technical convenience,
Karen
No problem Karen. I hope people take the time to read your thoughts!
ReplyDeleteThanks for sharing the links. Piper offers a seemingly simple and clearcut way, which is an enticing offer go get us out of this mess, but I must admit the issue of hell remains mysterious to me, and I wonder if it always will.
ReplyDeleteI was thinking about these videos tonight at the Ash Wed service, and I think Piper's attitude rubs me the wrong way, in this way: His logic is that if there's no hell, there are no stakes at hand, people will be apathetic, and this life doesn't matter. I couldn't help but remember a Claiborne quote, saying that if there were no heaven or hell, he'd still live the way of Jesus, b/c it's the best possible way to live in this world (Rob Bell has said a similar thing). This is worth contemplating. Even if we imagine the worst possible hell (as Dante did) we can be sure that there are people living out such a reality still today - people who have to prostitute themselves, children who have limbs hacked off with machetes, people who are treating like animals. We can be assured, without this debate (not that it isn't important) that there is hell on earth, and it makes a very big difference for us if people are living out the way of Jesus or not.
ReplyDeleteGood thoughts here.. but have one question for athada he quoted claiborne (which i am assuming is shane claiborne) "if there wasnt a heaven or hell he would still live the way of jesus" My question to that is if there is no heaven or hell what would have been the purpose of Jesus coming to live and die among us? I understand the idea in claibornes quote but thought that was interesting anyway.. thanks and keep thinking!!!
ReplyDeleteAnon:
ReplyDeleteI think Claiborne is using hyperbole here to express his joy at being able to live life in the Spirit here and now.